The Coalition of the Swilling

My wife keeps saying she wants to stop buying Chinese products.

I'm a manufacturing engineer. I can attest to the fact that this is a practical impossibility. So much of our goods are manufactured or their components are manufactured in China that you can't hardly participate in our economy without buying a lot of Chinese goods.

The Olympics have become a joke. I wish the jingoism could be separated from the athletic abilities of the individuals.

To a large extent you're right, Skyler. I look at most everything I buy, and if I can buy a domestic product I do, but darn near everything says "Made in China." But I still try.

It is very tough, but one can try. Took years to find an umbrella that wasn't chicom - it's like they invented rain or something.

Yeah, I don't see what "protesting" (behaving like thugs in this case) really does to get the point across. I have to admit, I'm not thrilled with the location of the Olympics, and I resent that their government's getting such an economic boost--that the people really won't get. But what more can be done?

You can't even count on a label ~ witness the dogfood scandal. They were ALL "made" in the USA...of Chinese gluten products.

And I'm with you Kate. Leave the thuggery behind, but why on EARTH we should kiss their authoritarian asses in pomp and circumstance, I have no idea. This is one time I hope San Francisco uses all it's collective subversive know-how to embarrass the SHIT out of the Chinese procession (without embarrassing themselves).

I suppose that having one's boots licked so assiduously may well be embarassing, but can we count on San Fran to come through in the clutch?

Sorry - that was cynical, but I feel some darkness today. Sooner or later these ultra-lefties are going to say to themselves, "Free Tibet from what? A glorious people's paradise?" Then they'll run off "Unite China" bumper stickers to go with their Che t-shirts and Palestinian flags.

Dammit, when's it gonna be Friday?

North American and European always said they want to stop buying from China to push China but why they can't? Answer is simple, they are enjoying low price products and they truly know that if they have no "made in China" products to buy, they live standard will drop. Image how much a pair of basketball shoes if it makes in USA? Now American can buy 3 to 4 pairs a year because they are made in China.

And for those blaming China's human right, please first think about how their country treat his own people. How they treat Iraq people, by bomb or by peace....

I just heard that the head of UK (I forgot his name) decided not to go open ceremony of the Game. However, he has no gust to say NO to China but he still need to please his people. What a western style democracy.

I'll put it this way: If a neighbor beats their kid regularly, and everyone in the neighborhood knows it, if the neighborhood decides to through a BBQ at his place, are you going to say to yourself, "hmm, he does beat his kid, but its not about what he does, its about the neighborhood BBQ."

Refusing to buy Chinese products is one way of showing disdain, sure. The problem is that it ignores the reality of trading and labor advantages China has over much of the world. That being said, it is a very pure, direct, though marginal way of proliferating a change. However, at the end of the day, you better believe I'd not only refuse to go to the BBQ, but I'd ask everyone else if they know what they're condoning by doing so. Acknowledge, but realize the mootness of the decision to do it there, rather than somewhere else. If you were the battered child, what would you think of the fact that everyone in the neighborhood knows your dad beats you, yet they're more than willing to attend, regardless.

DChan, you words are like from a headless fly. Keep buzzing. Have you been to Tibet, have you been to China? Your ear can only be filled with Dala liar's propoganda, shame on you.

J. Williams,

Well saying! Could not agree with you more.

I think the Olympics should not be used for any political agenda. The Tibetan protesters should be ashamed of their acting -- pretending to victims by lying on the ground. Their disruption of the torch relay is despicable and is disrespectful to the Olympic games and the Chinese people. If you had a chance to visit China, you would know that Chinese people have freedom and the aspiration to improve their lives, just like anyone else working hard for their families. It's only the Western media that have twisted China's image for their anit-China propaganda. If you really care about human rights and about innocent people getting hurt, then why not care about the Iraq civilians and the Han Chinese getting killed in the Tibetan riots.

You don't see the point? You don't see what protesting does?

IT EMBARRASSES CHINA. That's what it does. It focuses attention on them and their policies. It shows OUR leaders that the public is behind trying to force China to stop the human rights abuses.

You nay-sayers make me sick. I'll bet if this was 1939, you'd be saying, "Why care about some Jews in Germany?"

"you would know that Chinese people have freedom and the aspiration to improve their lives"

YOU might be stupid enough to believe that, but really - no one else does!

Well, it would seem that the Chinese propaganda machine has come to be a part of the Coalition of the Swilling. Who knew they were such imbibers? We know that the Chinese government has had a huge presence on the internet, I just never dreamed that they would try to influence a debate this way.

I fell the demonstrations and disruptions to the Olympic Torch in Paris, London and now in San Francisco are an embarrassment to all involved!

They have their right to express their opinnion but they should not force their wills on others by disrupting the Olympic Torch and create choas. They use their actions to show that they are as guilty as the government they try to condemn in terms of non-democracy.

News media should not protray and promote this type of actions.

It's amazing how many Communist Chinese sympathizers you have here on this board!

Yes, by ALL means, we shouldn't say ANYTHING about China's human rights violations because our own bastard leaders are also thugs. Nope - we should just IGNORE the human rights violations - or better yet, just "pretend" they don't happen at all, because "Chinese people have freedom".

BULLSHIT.

Skyler STUPIDLY wrote: "They use their actions to show that they are as guilty as the government they try to condemn in terms of non-democracy."

So protesters are as guilty as Chinese murderous military in Tibet, eh?

You prove your stupidity with such inane and vapid comments.

Hi,Guys!
Have you ever been to China? Do you really know something about China?
Don't believe CNN and the western media! They are mislead you! They are Cheating you!
I think only the stupid person believe them!

Boycotting Chinese products? Are you out of your mind?
The question you should be asking is why American businesses stay there. Because THEY ARE MAKING MONEY. Anyone who hates Chinese products because they're made in China are just ignorant. These products were made by Corporate America, period. If you want to hold someone responsible, it's them. They wouldn't be there, if they were losing money!! Plain and simple!!

People say boycotting Chinese products. Oh, that show patriotism or pride, whatever! I say they're just jealous. They don't want China to become powerful, just come out and say it, you cowards!

This Tibetan thing is just being used by all the Western powerhouses to target China. Just like how they used Taiwan! Oh, Gordan Brown is all of a sudden a human rights sympathizer? Pleeeease... Ask what the British have done to the Irish for all these years of occupation? Ask how the British Empire exploited India and China for all those years? Growing Opimium in India and selling to China -- it was the world's biggest drug dealer for years, for Christ's sake! Now they want to boycotting the Olympic ceremony. I say let them. They won't win any metals anyway. Good riddance.

Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi wants to speak against China on this matter. They don't know the first thing about foreign policy, ignorant opportunistic liars! They have no idea what they're saying.

It's way past time to do away with the Olympic Games, which have not "really" been about "sports" for decades but, instead, represent an almost unimaginable waste of money in conjunction with despicable global Olympic politics and criminal behavior on the part of numerous past (and perhaps present)IOC representatives.

I humbly assert that we should all be much more worried about starving children, nuclear weaponry proliferation, oil and coal resources, etc., etc....than we are concerned with steroid-infested and otherwise worthless individuals who may win a meaningless Olympic medal.

I fully support extinguishing the moronic Olympic torch....forever. For the very first time, France has done something right.

Throw away your computer first, all memories and hard disk and 80% component of any computer are made in China.

Who abuse human rights?

Please do a research on this subject:

Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

I am curious about how the western people know chinese people do not have human rights. If the human rights mean people have rights to acknowledge of everything, do the American people really know everything going on in America? Don't the media and politicians say any lies, do government really care about kid's education and why they always want to cut the education budget?

The Tibetan rioters are guilty. They started everything. If they didn't riot, nobody would be killed. And what the hell do they have to complain about anyway? Economic prosperity! China invested a shitload of money in Tibetan to build things and improve lives. They complain they don't get jobs, being discriminated. Com'on! Oh, please. They're just not used to Capitalism. Sounds like the Native Americans, don't they? Ever wonder why there are Indian Reservations in the middle of nowhere? White Americans put them there, that's why! If you sympathesize with Tibetan rioters so much, how about we all leave the American Continent, then? If you support these rioters so much. Shouldn't this land be returned to the Native Americans? I am sure they didn't want their land to be developed and used by others. Americans are just being hypocritical.

If you don't know China and wants to know, I suggest you visit instead of just blabbering things out at random. I have been to both China and the U.S.. I have lived in both, so I am more qualified to talk about it than YOU. It's you who don't know anything.

If you hate China just because you hate China, then I am sorry for you and I don't have anything to say to you.

China is a good place and people can live there every comfortable. If you not believe, you should go by yourself and see. NOT sitting in front of you computer to protest China. As we all know, Taiwan has human rights. But something you do not know, only in Shanghai, there are more than 300,000 taiwannese living in there. They do not working there, they are retiring there.

I have a question. If the leaders of China really have communication with Dalai Lama, all the protest will over or still continue. Since now the Tibet people they are not asking to have peace but want cessation, even the Dalai Lama is saying he wants peace and have atonomy of Tibet, the Tibet protesters will not stop their activities. The chaos will continue over the world. Dalai Lama really has authority for his own people?

So what would be the US's reaction if California wanted to leave? What if Californians revolted? EXACTLY THE SAME as what's happening in Tibet. Also, I like what an above poster said. Every country has done things to other countries that didn't even belong to them that were terrible. Now these same countries are pointing the finger at someone else. Good job guys.

My final note: Those out there who think the Chinese government is out to suppress its people and keep them in the dark is just ignorant. Why don't you stop giving into the media and learn something real. The media has its own agendas and the US government has its own too. They're afraid of China's rising power. They have to keep it in the "dark ages" in the minds of the American people.

Freedom? Your perception of freedom is clouding your head. What? Choosing between Obama, Clinton, and McCain is freedom? Please, spare me!

If you want China to assert pressure on Sudan, then you might want to take a look at some middle eastern allies of America first. Like Saudi Arabia. Many of the 9/11 hijackers were from there! And they have zero women rights. How about that? I don't see any Western politicians boycotting oil. Sudan is their own country and whatever internal affairs they have belong to themselves and no one else. Messing with their business is not China's responsibility. The US got in so much trouble precisely because it wants to police the world. Or I should say secure all oil reserves of the world.

Freedom? It's just propaganda used by the "haves" to control the "have-nots". You would be more peaceful if you "think" you have freedom. In reality, all you have is a never-ending hypocritical war in Iraq and a bad case of financial meltdown due to greed. Go ahead, choose the next presidential candidate and exercise your so called "freedom". You will see that precisely nothing would change. Obama talks about uniting the country, but his election will divide the country even more than you can imagine. Clinton is a liar, need I say more? McCain is Bush v.2, don't need him either.

Most Americans have been mislead by the media and the government into thinking that they have liberty and freedom and all that. They have been fooled. The government lies to the people all the time and this wouldn't change with new presidents. Just new lies. They really have no control over anyhthing. The real control lies with the Corporations.

If any country becomes stronger and have ability to compete America, would America be able to destroy it ? America is a country not emperor, right?

I am amazed at the stupidity level of some comments here. China is a threat to America. America doesn't care what China does, they just want to bring China down. And what gives America the right to critique China? Americans forced the Native Americans off their own land, killed many Native Americans, and invaded Iraq on the pretense of looking for nuclear weapons while there obviously were none.

So I think it is safe to say that Americans are goddamn idiots who are just looking for an excuse to eliminate competition and get what they want.

u know, I'm amazed by how many American losers here. If u want to protest "made in China" go around nude-protesting with "I don't wear made in China" flag. Show some heart, losers. Don't just hide behind a computer and type in lies after lies about a land u never even visit.

I think what many people don't realise is that by trying to EMBARRASS China, they are shaming the ENTIRE Chinese community, including those that may not be necessary for the oppression. China is not about a government. It is a people. All people that has Chinese blood running through them.

When you say embarrass China, there is no separation between the state or the people, you are simply trying to put down a race, and make them look bad. That's what in essence it is. Racism. You are saying the Chinese morals are inferior to yours because they are not Western morality, and they don't follow your way of doing things.

I think that this entire anti-Chinese sentiment just because of China's internal, mind you sovereignly internal, affairs is unsettling. Sovereignly internal because Tibet, by definition, is not part of China, it IS China as well. Chinese is not a single ethnic group, it is the combination of 5 major ethnic groups. To say free Tibet FROM China is like saying free Texas from US. The entire US is a nation, Texas is America. I believe we have already fought a civil war over this concept if you guys have forgot?

The violent behaviour of Tibetant protestors says all about their nature. They even attacked torch bearer on wheel chair. These are the people knowingly violate laws. Why not release all 1 million prisoners in US in the name of human rights.

Skyler, you nailed this one. There are Chinese sockpuppets all over the place!

Same as in American, minority people like Tibetan get a lot benifit. I have a friend whose father is Han and mother is a Tibetan. By Chinese law, he can choose to be either, and he actually choose to be a Tibetan. It is simple by doing this since Tibetan can enter good university much easier. If the Tibetans are really oppressed as many of you thought, why one will like to choose to be a Tibetan.

I think you're right, Jeff. It's like a totalitarian muppet show. If I link to this post I wonder if I'll get my own group of chuppets.

Warning: lengthy fisking of the Swilling's newly welcomed PRC mouthpieces ahead.

"...for those blaming China's human right, please first think about how their country treat his own people. How they treat Iraq people, by bomb or by peace..."

Well, that's certainly logical. Anyone who isn't perfect shouldn't criticize, eh? I fail to see how the actions of the United States ever in its history, even at its worst, could be comparable to the PRC, which has the blood of at least 100 million of its own people on its hands. As for Iraq, reasonable people can differ as to the utility of going to war in the first place, but as for the CONDUCT of the war, the degree to which the US bends over backwards to avoid civilian casualties can't overstated. By contrast, our enemies seek out the deaths of as many innocents as possible.

"I just heard that the head of UK (I forgot his name)"

Her name is Queen Elizabeth II. Gordon Brown is her prime minister.

"...he still need to please his people. What a western style democracy."

Oh horrors: he has to be accountable to the public! So tell me, if you do not accept the premise of the Declaration of Independence that the only legitimate governmental authority must derive from the consent of the governed, where does the legitimacy of an unaccountable government come from? The Mandate of Heaven, perhaps? From the barrel of a gun, as Mao said? Do you believe that might makes right?

"I think the Olympics should not be used for any political agenda."

The Olympics have been fundamentally political in nature ever since Baron de Coubertain revived them in 1896. To deny that can only be either naive or disingenuous. Saying "don't be political" is almost always code for "don't say things I disagree with or find upsetting."

"Their disruption of the torch relay is despicable and is disrespectful to the Olympic games and the Chinese people."

Of course it's disrespectful: that's precisely the point. Protesters do disrespectful things to draw attention to their cause. No one is entitled to respect. Respect has to be earned. What exactly have either the PRC or the IOC ever done to deserve respect from anyone? On the contrary, they have both repeatedly earned an enduring measure of contempt. And "despicable?" Not at all, but admirable, because irreverence is the truest mark of a free people: tyrants can kill those who mock them, but that doesn't make themselves "unmocked."

"Have you ever been to China? Do you really know something about China?"

I don't have to have been to China to know something about China. I've been a student of Chinese history and politics ever since I learned to read. I'm 100% certain I know more about China than any of the PRC mouthpieces on here know about the US by several orders of magnitude. Again, your attitude and rhetoric is so predictable I could've written it for you: China is the center of the universe, China is entitled to absolute deference, you barbarian foreign devils don't know anything about China, so just shut up and do everything we say. In the spirit of the Macartney mission, I'll take a pass on the kowtowing, thanks.

"These products were made by Corporate America, period."

Uh, no. It's still illegal for foreign corporations or individuals to own a majority of any business that operates in the mainland PRC (though not in Hong Kong or Macao). Most large "private" businesses in China are actually majority-owned by either the PLA, the Communist Party, or high-ranking members of one or the other.

"Oh, Gordan Brown is all of a sudden a human rights sympathizer?"

I worked for the Conservative Party in London during the last few months of John Major's government doing opposition research on the Labour then-Shadow Cabinet. I am not a fan of Gordon Brown. To say he has many flaws would be an understatement. But unlike Tony Blair, a penchant for playing fast and loose with the truth and his own supposed principles is not one of them. If he takes a position, I may or may not agree with it, but it's his real belief.

"Pleeeease... Ask what the British have done to the Irish for all these years of occupation?"

Last I checked, we were talking about the present. Last I checked, Ireland was an independent country, with a GDP higher than the UK and fast-approaching the highest in Europe. As for what the British provided Ireland, they provided what they did for many of their former colonies: both the framework for ordered liberty and self-government, and more importantly the habits and attitude to maintain it--the enduring legacy of the British Empire to the world is of governments of laws rather than men. Perfection? No, of course not. But a legacy to be proud of? Without doubt.

"Ask how the British Empire exploited India and China for all those years? Growing Opimium in India and selling to China -- it was the world's biggest drug dealer for years, for Christ's sake!"

And it was the outrage of the British people that ended it, because the British government was answerable to them.

"Now they want to boycotting the Olympic ceremony. I say let them. They won't win any metals [sic] anyway. Good riddance."

OK: let China have its Olympics all by itself and win ALL the medals! Exactly the attitude I would expect.

"If they didn't riot, nobody would be killed."

If the PRC hadn't invaded, they wouldn't have rioted.

"So what would be the US's reaction if California wanted to leave? What if Californians revolted? EXACTLY THE SAME as what's happening in Tibet."

California is a sovereign self-governing US state. The people of California have their own government, unlike the people of Tibet. If they ever decided to secede, it would be through the democratic process rather than by violent revolt because they HAVE a democratic outlet for their political beliefs.

"Those out there who think the Chinese government is out to suppress its people and keep them in the dark is just ignorant."

The fact that Chinese governments have done the same for most of their history? Pure coincidence, I'm sure. I must be ignorant to suggest otherwise.

"...it is safe to say that Americans are goddamn idiots.."

"...I'm amazed by how many American losers here."

Are you in the habit of insulting your hosts? Do you comprehend that this is not a public forum, but you are here at the sufferance of the American family that runs this blog, who most of us who've been commenting here for years regard as personal friends? Who the hell do you think you are?

"When you say embarrass China, there is no separation between the state or the people, you are simply trying to put down a race ... Chinese is not a single ethnic group, it is the combination of 5 major ethnic groups."

That's self-contradictory. Which is it? Is "Chinese" a race, or is 5 major ethnic groups? Sun Yat-Sen's admirable decency and idealism notwithstanding, the "5 Races Under One Flag" slogan from the 1911 Revolution has, in practice, been a slogan for attempting to advance Han supremacy over the other 4 races. After more than 250 years of being ruled by a minority, it might be understandable, but it doesn't mean it's noble or principled.

"Tibet, by definition, is not part of China, it IS China as well."

What, because China says so? Just because multiple armies associated with various governments that also ruled China conquered Tibet over the centuries does not mean Tibet somehow became an integral part of China. Whether it was the Mongols, the Ming, the Manchus or the PRC, military occupation was the only way China ever controlled Tibet. Tibet was and remains distinct. It was and is ruled BY China: the Chinese government may call it a part of China, but that doesn't make it so, any more than Algeria was a part of metropolitan France from the 1830's to the 1950's.

"To say free Tibet FROM China is like saying free Texas from US."

No, it isn't. The US doesn't have to forcibly hold on to Texas the way China does Tibet. Texas is part of the US because it wants to be, because its people CHOOSE to be Americans, not just legally, but as part of their own conception of themselves. Indeed, the Texas Republic could have remained independent but asked to join the US. Tibet has never asked to be a part of China.

Dave,
I have to admire you put up such a pire of ill logics to support your ignorance. You forgot Texas, CA, Hawaii were grabbed by US using force. US is also the only major country had slavery in the last mordern history. The segragation went on until late 60s. After King was murdered, big riots erupted in DC, the government had to cracked down it. Should we condemn that? One thing you are right is I don't justify Chinese government action based on what US government did. The truth is Tibet was running slavery under Dalai Liar, the PRC transform that into modern society. The upper class used to enjoy slavery are the ones got pissed off and use violence to protest the Olympics.

The history of the U.S. isn't as clean as you might think. It invaded China along with a slew of other Western nations including Britain, France, Germany, etc... during the Qing dynasty in order to force China to open ports to trade. Hmmm, I wonder if you ever learned that as a Chinese history student. But somehow you conveniently forgot that. So I'd say before rushing to point fingers at China over human rights, you should examine your own conduct.

The Declaration of Independence? Funny you should mention that. Did the Native Ameriocans ever participate in signing that? Find me the Native American who signed it. If none, then could they raise up and challenge your notion of legitimate government?

When the British stopped exploiting China, did you return any of their lootings? How about colonies like Hong Kong? No. They kept the lootings so they could put them in museums as trophies. And they waited a 100 years to extract all wealth from Hong Kong before returning it. Right, I guess the British people really really really were mad about the exploitation and they decided to act IMMEDIATELY!!! And that makes everything OK, then, right?

Mao did say that about the gun barrel, yes. And I suspect a majority of Western politicians would agree with him although they probably wouldn't come out and say it. What is the US doing in Iraq? Hmmm, to rescue the poor people from Saddam. I seriously doubt that. How about trying to control the oil? Why use your own domestic oil when you can just take it from others? This Iraq business was all wrong from the start. How can Bush still be in office? He should be jailed for starting a war under false pretense -- and America tried to impeach Clinton for having an affair. Oh, please!

The Olympics are about sports and competition. Some athletes train for their whole lives for an opportunity to compete in it. It may well be their only chance. The least the world can do is to respect that and let them compete. Plus, it is the proper arena for nations to compete and learn about each other, or would you rather they do it on a battle field.

Tibet has been part of China for hundreds of years. And not all Tibetans want independence. Only a small minority. They are using the media as an outlet for their agenda. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, right? That's how America works. Even if you're wrong, just talk loud enough and people will agree with you!

"You forgot Texas, CA, Hawaii were grabbed by US using force."

Sorry, wrong. Texas declared independence from Mexico ten years before it joined the US. California, as with the rest of the southwest, was purchased from Mexico at the end of the Mexican War. The Hawaiian monarchy was, indeed, overthrown by force but Sanford Dole and the other founders of the Republic of Hawaii, of both European and Hawaiian descent, were native-born citizens of the Kingdom, not agents of the US who "grabbed" Hawaii. Hawaii was a very forward-looking constitutional monarchy throughout most of the 19th century--unlike, say, China--but it was at the crossroads of the Pacific and would've been someone's colony within a few years: if not the US, then the UK or Japan.

"US is also the only major country had slavery in the last mordern history."

Shane, who do you define as a major country, and what time do you define as modern history? The UK abolished slavery in the 1830's and set about destroying the worldwide slave trade by force shortly thereafter. France abolished slavery in 1848. Alexander II of Russia (the "Tsar Emancipator") freed the serfs in 1861. Most of the US population lived in free states by the time of the Civil War. The Ottoman Empire abolished slavery in 1876. Brazil did it in 1888. Your beloved China didn't get around to it until 1910, the last full year of the Qing Dynasty, and since the country de facto disintegrated shortly thereafter, in practice there were still slaves throughout the Warlord Era into the 1930's.

Moreover, I'd be the last person to say Tibet under the Dalai Lama before the PRC invaded was some kind of paradise. A modern independent Tibet would not revert to being a stratified feudalistic Buddhist theocracy. The PRC makes itself even more laughable by suggesting that it would.

Why all the western media are bashing China? They even made up stories to try to make China look bad. This really exposed their true dark side - they do not want to see that China is rising as a new power. They are jealous of what China has achieved.

Boycott "made in China"? Are you kidding? Your westerners try so hard to sell your values to China, while you are boycotting buying in from China?

I watched the TV about 2 years ago while Canada Prime Minister apologized to the aboriginals on taking their homeland and driving them to the icy-cold northern territories. The apologies are so touching, but will you white Canadians give the land back to the Native Americans?

I am supprised the so many people are just blind to the truth and build up their self-confidence and self-satisfaction on cursing and destroying other contries and nations. You are not prepared for China's rising. I understand that. Don't be so panic, though.

I don't know why I'm blamed for someone else's quote.

I think this hyper commenting spree is attributable to one thing: There are a billion people in China. They live in a totalitarian neo-communist society. They've plenty of people to teach English and have them spend their time on the internet spewing propaganda.

I think the Swilling should be very proud to have gained the attention of Beijing. Congrats, guys!

"The history of the U.S. isn't as clean as you might think. ... Hmmm, I wonder if you ever learned that as a Chinese history student."

Don't condescend to me by suggesting I had some sort of slanted education that conveniently "forgot" about US involvement in China in the 19th century. I don't claim the US has a perfect record or is pristine and unblemished without room for improvement. You, however, do basically claim exactly that about China, which is patently ridiculous. Much as expected, you regard me not being hypercritical of the US as "ignorance," but you regard any criticism of China as "despicable and disrespectful." The Middle Kingdom isn't allowed to be judged by the same standards as us barbarians, right?

"When the British stopped exploiting China, did you return any of their lootings?"

I'm American, not British: I just worked for the Tory Party.

"...they waited a 100 years to extract all wealth from Hong Kong before returning it."

That statement presupposes that wealth is a finite thing to be "extracted" and "exploited," rather than created. Do you honestly think Hong Kong would've thrived to the same extent as it did over the course of the 20th century if it'd had to deal with China's instability? As for the time period, the British had a 99-year lease, it ended, and they kept their word and gave it back.

"Right, I guess the British people really really really were mad about the exploitation and they decided to act IMMEDIATELY!!! And that makes everything OK, then, right?"

No, it doesn't make everything OK. It makes clear that things were moving in the right direction over time.

"Mao did say that about the gun barrel, yes. And I suspect a majority of Western politicians would agree with him although they probably wouldn't come out and say it."

Really? How many "Western politicians" do you know personally, or are you just saying that because it fits the way you like to imagine the world? Indeed, because you yourself perceive the world to operate that way, you therefore expect others to adhere to the same perceptions. Psychologists call that "projection."

"How about trying to control the oil?"

If the US had wanted Iraqi oil, it would've been a hell of a lot less expensive in blood and treasure to just end the sanctions and do business with Saddam. Like, say, the French, Russians, Germans and Chinese were doing anyway in blatant defiance of the beloved UN that they trumpet whenever convenient.

"Why use your own domestic oil when you can just take it from others?"

The US doesn't use as much of its domestic oil as we could because we have a political system that's answerable to the public, including to extreme environmental ideologues who succeed in preventing further domestic prospecting and production.

"How can Bush still be in office? He should be jailed for starting a war under false pretense --"

I'm not a fan of the President by any means, but if you want to debate the legalities of the war, I'd be happy to: it'll make my previous remarks look brief by comparison.

"...and America tried to impeach Clinton for having an affair. Oh, please!"

The House DID impeach Bill Clinton, not for having an affair but for perjury and obstruction of justice. The Senate chose not to convict him for understandable but entirely political reasons. And the Arkansas Supreme Court was entirely justified in disbarring him for it. People don't lose a license to practice law just for having an affair.

"The Olympics are about sports and competition. Some athletes train for their whole lives for an opportunity to compete in it. It may well be their only chance. The least the world can do is to respect that and let them compete."

I'm not calling for a full-on boycott of participation like 1980 and 1984, just of the opening ceremonies.

"Plus, it is the proper arena for nations to compete and learn about each other, or would you rather they do it on a battle field."

Sir, you're making me into a straw man. Moreover, it's obvious you yourself aren't practicing what you preach, since your basic attitude seems to be "China is above criticism, but the West is evil."

"Tibet has been part of China for hundreds of years."

Tibet has been RULED by China, on and off, for hundreds of years. That doesn't make it part of China just like, say, Sichuan or Hebei is part of China. The best historical analogy I can think of is Poland. Just because it was divided up between Austria, Prussia and Russia, does that mean the Poles ceased to be as a distinct people? That Poland was no longer a nation, even though it was a nation without a state?

"And not all Tibetans want independence. Only a small minority."

How could you, or anyone, actually claim to know that one way or another? Do you honestly think someone could conduct a poll that would give a real representative result of actual opinion, since most people would assume the pollster was a PRC agent? But let's assume for the sake of argument that you're correct: if that were the case, shouldn't the PRC let the Tibetan vote on their political future, since they'd freely choose to be part of China?

for anyone who wants to know what really happened when Dalai Lama was in charge in Tibet, please read this reference backed link:

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

The Western media loves a piece of dirt on China. They'd love to report how China is abusing human rights and crushing the peace-loving Tibetan protesters. In all their diligence, they failed to report on how the Tibetan rioters were organized and did horrible things to ordinary Chinese citizens. And that the Chinese government used military force only to suppress these riots and restore order.

We could argue all day about who is right and who is wrong, but at the end what matters is that the Olympics should be allowed to proceed without these scars.

If those who thinks that this is an opportunity to embarrass China, then I think they are mistaken. China is not going to change its stance on the Tibetan issue. Not because some idiot boycotted the Olympics or other idiots boycotted Chinese products. Did you ever think economic sanction would work? (Cuba, Iraq, Iran, etc...) Only arrogant Americans think everyone is out for money like they are. So at the end, the Tibetan protesters will not achieve anything. Their efforts are wasted. China will not allow Tibetan independence, no matter who disagrees. That's just as simple as that. You can protest all day and it won't change anything.

Please also remember that there are always two sides to a coin. Many Tibetans don't want independence for the same reason why many US states don't want to leave the union -- they can enjoy much better economic development and living standards by remain under China's umbrella. There is no denying that. Just a few fundamentalists are stirring up the pot. If they're left to themselves, they would create a state based on a religion, much like that of Taliban. There is no telling what people led by extreme religious believes can do. Americans should know better than anyone. Sure, they're peace loving monks and they are our friends, but so was Al Qaeda once...

Uh, no. It's still illegal for foreign corporations or individuals to own a majority of any business that operates in the mainland PRC (though not in Hong Kong or Macao)---------------
this is so ridiculous,look at the number of starbucks in shanghai,are you saying they are illegal?

Morgan: valid criticisms of old Tibet aren't helped by being spewed by an old-school Marxist and Soviet apologist like Parenti.

You are totally ignorant, Support China. I suggest that you do your research on First Nation history in Canada before you toss out such "facts". The "fact" is that Northern Canada has been occupied by the Inuit culture for hundreds of years; we did not "drive them to icy-cold northern territories" as you so erroneously stated. You are taking the PMs comments totally out of context and twisting them to support your own misguided context.

"Truth," why don't you educate yourself a little bit on franchising, both of operations and intellectual property, before you suggest that the number of storefronts that have a particular corporate label on them actually mean anything?

Last I checked, you still weren't allowed to be a Christian in China unless you were a member of a state-approved church - as of, oh, this morning. Every resident of China is a slave to the government, who sees them as their property; not free to think in any way contrary to the wishes of the state, not free even to have more than one child in the family. All in all, I think that I'll take the West's record of expanding human freedoms and liberty, warts and all.

And all of this shrieking about hating the Chinese people is a ridiculous farce. NOBODY here hates the Chinese people, who have a very long history with a great deal of wisdom and nobility. What we object to is this dishonest insistence that we ignore every evil of the current Communist government while only acknowledging the evils of the West. Why are our sins the key to us, while China's sins are irrelevant?

To hate China's current government is not an indictment of the people - precisely because they have nearly no say in the matter. One may as well blame a baby for how its parents dress them. (And before freaking out about the metaphor, consider that this is EXACTLY how the Communist government treats its citizens, as you well realize; else you would not talk about all the basic necessities the government doles out to its people in morsels, when every last bite should be theirs by God-given right.)

Who loves a people more, those who want them to be free, or those who insist that the state must control every aspect of their lives? Who loves them more, those who welcome them or those who support a government whose policy is to murder its own citizens?

Skyler
Actually, the people talking here are not under the totalitarian control in China, they like you are a resident in America. Please do not over use your imagination. We are just people can stand the twisted and wrong news broadcasting in the media.

The fact about Tibet, Dalai Lama and Mao Zedong

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/tibet.html

CK, if all the PRC mouthpieces on here were resident in America, one would expect most of them to be native English speakers. Based on their grammatical errors, most of them clearly aren't, yourself included.

"Don't condescend to me by suggesting I had..."

I wasn't trying to condescend you. But just wondering if you ever learn that. If you did, why not base you argument on that instead of trying to attack me personally.

"That statement presupposes that wealth is a finite thing to be "extracted" and "exploited," rather than created. Do you honestly think Hong Kong would've thrived to the same extent as it did over the course of the 20th century if it'd had to deal with China's instability? As for the time period, the British had a 99-year lease, it ended, and they kept their word and gave it back."

How would know it wouldn't? I guess we'll never know. And are people supposed to pay for a "lease"? I don't think the Chinese government received regular payments on a "lease" to Hong Kong. It's so pathetic you should use that word.

"Really? How many "Western politicians" do you know personally, or are you just saying that because it fits the way you like to imagine the world? Indeed, because you yourself perceive the world to operate that way, you therefore expect others to adhere to the same perceptions. Psychologists call that "projection.""

By the same token, how do you know they're not thinking it. Perhaps you are one projecting your ideals on the world. Is that too psychological for you?

I'm not calling for a full-on boycott of participation like 1980 and 1984, just of the opening ceremonies.

And I was not suggesting a full-on boycott either. Just the fact that such an event has been marred by these negative protests and us arguing over it.
I think the athletes deserve at least a peaceful event.

"Sir, you're making me into a straw man. Moreover, it's obvious you yourself aren't practicing what you preach, since your basic attitude seems to be "China is above criticism, but the West is evil.""

I am suggesting China is above criticism. They could have allowed more media coverage into the Tibetan protests. And I certainly don't think all of the West is evil. I think it is more of a cultural or ideological clash. There are fundamental differences in the way we think about and handle things. I am just saying that the way the Western media portrayed it is one-sided, which makes China out to be the bad guy. And there are people who are eager to jump on the band-wagon and starting saying things like "boycotting Chinese products", which has nothing to do with this.

"Tibet has been RULED by China, on and off,..."

The point is Tibet has been under China, whether it started as a forceful take-over or peaceful integration, no one really knows. Can you honestly say your history books are correct about all the events that took place? What's important, like I said, is that not all Tibetans want independence. A small number of them have a disproportionate voice in Western media. They appear to be the victims, but really they don't represent the whole Tibet.

"Do you honestly think someone could conduct a poll that would give a real representative result of actual opinion, since most people would assume the pollster was a PRC agent?..."

If there were a vote, I doubt you would believe it's validity. You would conveniently brush it aside and say it's fixed by the government. And you call me "not preaching" what I say. Don't you have certain prejudice in this case also? Let's not kid ourselves.

Whew, thanks for the heavy lifting Dave, Diptera and Skyler! You guys rock! We have a CNN link to thank for all these...um...spirited pros and coms...whoops...CONS. I thought "Oh, how nice! Company visiting!" Then I saw the comment count.

YOYSH.

Well, this just proves the old "God bless America" 'cause this sure wouldn't happen, like, in China or someplace.

Skyler
I am still a student in college in California and taking English class. Certainly, I am trying best to improve my English. Even if my English grammar is poor, I just want to show what I mean. Do not over use your imagination- NO BEIJING IS INVOLVED IN HERE.

"...why not base you argument on that instead of trying to attack me personally."

Prochina, echoing what Nightfly said, I have an enormous degree of admiration for China as a civilization. I have precisely zero regard or respect for the current despotic government ruling China, and equally little regard for those who would defend it: to be counted among apologists for tyrants is not just one more opinion in the marketplace of ideas. It is to enlist as a willing footsoldier in an army of death. Solzhenitsyn said that to confuse Russia with the Soviet Union was the same as confusing a sick man with his disease: I would extent the same analogy as between China and the PRC.

Hey, why do I get blamed again? I didn't mock anyone's use of language, though it's clear that these propagandists are not native speakers of American English. Inelegant use of language does not make much difference in understanding what is meant, and being understood is the only important thing.

CK, I've no doubt you're a resident in the US. I'm a manufacturing engineer, as stated before. I've seen Communist China send lots of people to this country to work for me on engineering projects. Being resident here doesn't mean they aren't still in fear of and controlled by their communist government. And I'm sure that the communist government of China doesn't allow its people to leave and come to the US to study or work if they aren't willing supporters of the regime.

If China supporters really want to make their country look good, they shouldn't be bad mouthing Tibet. It's like blaming a woman for being raped. I guess it works in Perisa, it might as well work in east Asia. Yeah, China raped Tibet, but that little whore deserved it. Yeah, what a great argument.

The complaint I had was about how the Western media painted a negative image of China through the reporting of this Tibet issue. They seem to think that because China is communist therefore, it must be doing something evil. I believe most Americans do not hate the Chinese people.

With that said, I'd like to clear up a few things. First, most Chinese people do not "hate" the Chinese government, despite the fact that they don't have a lot of freedom. To think that most Chinese people are somehow enslaved by the government and are abused is purely an over imagination by Westerners. The Chinese communist government has not been a perfect government, I think we can all agree on that. Just think back to Cultural Revolution and so forth. But in recent years, the government has changed. Led by Deng Xiaoping's economic development initiatives, the Chinese government has transformed China from poor nation into one that's an economic powerhouse now. This is undeniable. Even though there are still parts of china that are poor and left behind, things are improving overall. As you can imagine, people tend not to complain much when times are good. And the people have seen the government doing "real" work. So when Western media portray China as the bad guy, there is a natural tendency for any ordinary Chinese to come to its defense. I think this is something Westerners do not realize. They "think" they're helping Chinese citizens by criticizing the government when really the citizens think it's none of their business. So don't waste your time.

Second, the Western media has always been an outlet for anti-china news propaganda. that's the point of my complaint. It almost seems like they don't want a good relation with China. All they want to do is find bad news on China so they can fan up anti-China emotions in the West. I am really dissappointed by that. I don't know if it's ignorance or prejudice. But it seems to be working. A lot of Americans now don't trust anything related to China. Chinese products are painted with lead paint -- they did not mention the other 99% products that were good. Chinese military is abusing human rights by killing Tibetan protesters -- what about the protesters commiting crimes again Chinese citizens. So on...

Ironically, people in China read the news and know they are biased; people in the countries with freedom of speeches read the news and think they are getting the whole truth.
How did us get lied into this endless war? Where was the unbiased media to show the unpopular side of the story?
The MSM coverage on the current Tibet problem is extremely one sided.
We all like to think of ourselves as intelligent independent thinkers. Why then, would so many take whatever Dalai says as the truth (he's the "Living God" incapable of lying for his own agenda?) but never give the Chinese government the benefit of doubt (things are not always black and white; even in Hollywood movies, the bad guys sometimes do good things).
Propaganda/brainwash takes many forms. Some people are more skillful than others.

"They seem to think that because China is communist therefore, it must be doing something evil."

That's a fairly logical and reasonable thing to think, seeing as communism IS evil and has universally lead to mass murder.

"To think that most Chinese people are somehow enslaved by the government and are abused is purely an over imagination by Westerners."

No it isn't. The PRC is unaccountable to the people of China and able to act upon them in completely unchecked and arbitrary ways. That makes them slaves rather than citizens whether they want to believe it or not.

"...what about the protesters commiting crimes again Chinese citizens."

Aren't the protesters themselves Chinese citizens? Since, after all, Tibet is part of China according to the Chinese government.

Very good comments, prochina.

First, I know you were not being precise, but 99% is not nearly good enough when it comes to product liability.

You're probably right that many modern Chinese people don't complain much because they are living better than before. But that's hardly a very positive statement. If you stop twisting a knife in a man's gut he'll probably say he has a lot less pain, too.

Because you come from a communist country that regularly imprisons people for political crimes, it makes it very hard to take your comments too seriously even though you sound quite earnest. If I had relatives being held in a communist country, I'd likely say all sorts of nice things about that communist government. So, thanks for your opinions, but because of the oppressive nature of your government, it's really hard to take you at your word.

Skyler, your comments show that you're truly ignorant. Anyone with half a brain would know that "China" did not send anyone to the US. These people came on their own or at the request of your employer. What you said only displayed your insecurity about being an American and holding on to a job.

And your talk of China raping Tibet is ridiculous. China is helping Tibet by developing its infra-structure and improving its people's lives. Many Tibetans welcome this effort. Rape? How about the American soldier raping Japanese girl in Japan? Now that's real rape.

How can you say that with any intelligence?

"China is helping Tibet by developing its infra-structure and improving its people's lives."

And Mussolini made the trains run on time. The exact same amount of capital investment could be provided (by China or by anyone) without the military occupation.

Wow, prochina, someone has finally identified me correctly. It's a good day because a communist has called me ignorant. I will wear that as a badge of honor.

As for the rape analogy, your comment only makes it work better. We Americans admit we have criminals, just as any society does. When we catch them, we put them in jail, fine them, or execute them. That is all we can ask. We can't change all humans into being saints, but we can act against those that hurt others.

It seems that you don't think China should take responsibility for its crimes. When China rapes Tibet, it blames Tibet for the rape. At least when one of our soldiers commits such a horrible crime we punish him. When is China going to be punished for its actions?

Man, I really don't care about Tibet, but you're making me want to take up the cause!

"When we catch them, we put them in jail, fine them, or execute them."

So we have 1 in 100 in jail in this country. Somehow, 25% young Black men end up in jail.

NP, do you want one of the main real, un-PC reasons why prison in the US is disproportionately black? It's a cultural thing I notice repeatedly as a prosecutor: the culture of hanging out on the street corner. If you loiter in a public place that's in a high crime area, the police are generally going to be around MORE, yet if that's where you decide to commit crimes rather than, say, indoors, you're going to be arrested with vastly greater frequency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas&NR=1

Would this kind of manipulating and misusing of news photos by the media be acceptable to any truth-seeking free thinkers?

"If I had relatives being held in a communist country, I'd likely say all sorts of nice things about that communist government. "

Oh my God! Do you really believe that or just saying it because you are running out of arguments? I really hoped you would come up with something better, but now I know I was wrong. If you really believe that, then I don't know what to say.

"And Mussolini made the trains run on time. The exact same amount of capital investment could be provided (by China or by anyone) without the military occupation."

China's investment in Tibet is not a profitable one. It is losing money. There is little natural resources in Tibet other than tourism. China's investment has been mainly to help improve people's lives and develop tourism. Why? Because it is part of China. Do you know of any Corporation that would make such an investment? I doubt that.

"It's a good day because a communist has called me ignorant. I will wear that as a badge of honor."

And Skyler, I am not a communist. I believe in free market. If you did not want to talk about Tibet, then why are you on this blog? I suppose you are here just to pump out negative comments on China, then. Do you really think that's healthy?

All I am trying to say is that there are two sides to everything. You guys seem bent on believing the negative aspects.

"It's a cultural thing I notice repeatedly as a prosecutor: the culture of hanging out on the street corner."

This has to be the "noblest" explanation/excuse I've ever heard. Guess you are a white dude.
Actually, I got that number wrong:
"After three decades of explosive growth, the nation’s prison population has reached some grim milestones: More than 1 in 100 American adults are behind bars. One in nine black men, ages 20 to 34, are serving time, as are 1 in 36 adult Hispanic men." --NYT 3/10/08
Yeah, I read the NYT. But FOXnews would report the same numbers.
Leave the minorities aside, "1 in 100" is still a still an astonishing number. 1% of the population don't have "freedom"? Hmm....

"If you did not want to talk about Tibet, then why are you on this blog? I suppose you are here just to pump out negative comments on China, then. Do you really think that's healthy?"

Nope, I really don't much care about Tibet or China. They could pretty much both fall off the Earth and I wouldn't miss either one, not that I would wish them ill.

This blog isn't about Tibet or China, though apparently some apparatchiks want to make it so.

Dave,under your logics most of china made products are imported by american companies it should not make any amercians panic?also companies like starbucks manage the stores themselves though they did employ local workforces as operations.that is a common sense for all multinational companies.my current employer is an american and he owns the company 100%.Be assured amercians are very smart people they won't make illegall and non-profitable investment in any foreign countries.Save those legal education for yourself please.

NP- "1% of the population don't have freedom?"

No, they chose to give up that freedom by committing a crime and they got caught.

j williams- "Refusing to buy Chinese products is one way of showing disdain, sure. The problem is that it ignores the reality of trading and labor advantages China has over much of the world."

Quite the opposite, in fact. It shows complete awareness of those factors, and a willingness to say "I will go against my economic self-interest to make a statement, however drop-in-the-ocean it may be in the grand scheme of things."

I decided that my latest comment had too much linking and too many words, so I posted it at my place. But do carry on.

Where'd they go? They were more than a gaggle of Orlando Bloom fangirls.

Maybe they exhausted their internet allotments for the week.