The Coalition of the Swilling

At least you agree that the US Army can shoot!

PS: :-D

Ha. Ha.

Guess he's saying they shoot like the Air Force.

That is too funny. Good thing it was a corporal in charge because a lieutenant couldn't speak such truths! :)

I'm just glad they don't shoot like a girl.

The Air Force shoots, Cullen? I thought they just dropped stuff from the sky. ;-p

I earned a small arms marksmanship ribbon while active duty Air Force. I think the guy next to me may have been shooting at my target.

I earned a small arms marksmanship ribbon while active duty Air Force. I think the guy next to me may have been shooting at my target.

Hmmm:

"The 2008 Interservice Rifle Match was held recently in Quantico, Virginia. Shooters of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit (USAMU) won EVERY team match of the competition. More than 125 shooters from the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Reserve and National Guard competed in the rifle championships at Quantico Marine Corps Base."

Let the excuses begin. It will be twenty years past me in July, but once upon a time I was pretty damn good with an M-16.

Glad to see that, Dave!

Hey, maybe the Marines used blank ammo?

(psst, Jeff, we better not tell them about the pistol results
though, that would be piling on.)

They did pretty well, I'll give ya that. Lucky damn thing the best shots on the Corps are out picking heads off Taliban shoulders instead of practicing at a proper range.

'Cause, see, they all belong to individual units and get to play on the range when they can be spared, unlike the better funded USA, who snatches up their rifle team members and sequesters them as a unit (for the length of their careers) at the "Home of Champions" (aka Ft. Benning, for the uninitiated)...

I'm just sayin'.

They did real good.

Uh-huh. If that's your story, then you stick to it, my respected Marine friend. ;)

Jeff, you do realize I'm going TACP for the Air Force right? We get taught to shoot quite well, oh, and that other thing...calling in bombs. So, I guess that makes us twice as good. :P

Actually, as a matter of fact, we have to get attached to Army/Navy/Marine Corps units to call in said bombs. Heh, face it, you needs us, precious, yes!

Oh, yeah, Ebola, we needs you, we do! Zoomies are always welcome, especially when they bring the Mark 84's!!!!

Cool on hitting TACP.....and for what it's worth, my father was in the Air Force. Indeed, he was in the Army Air Corps first. Good luck!

Thank you ALL for your service!!

Don't the Marine snipers go the Army Sniper School?

Think so, but I'm not sure.

No, Marines have their own sniper school in Quantico.

No one says that there aren't any good army shooters. The point is, and it's pretty much the case, that Marines have traditionally placed much greater emphasis on marksmanship for all Marines, while until recently the army has only required a small percent of soldiers to have anything more than a basic understanding of how a rifle works.

"...while until recently the army has only required a small percent of soldiers to have anything more than a basic understanding of how a rifle works."

!00% wrong, Skyler. Every soldier is trained to use a rifle in Basic. The difference is that the Marines continue to emphasize and require marksmanship training for all Marines, the Army did not for a long time. Handling a rifle well requires constant practice. The Marines live that; the Army, not so much, at least not until recently.

Dave, I am assured (well, so your Lab tells me) that you are both an ardent and accurate marksman. Many dead deep woods creatures would attest to it as well...if only they could.

That was well put, Jeff.

And, Jim? Ah...no.

Sniper Fact
The Marine Scout Sniper School was established in 1967.
Every branch of the military uses snipers in some capacity. The SEALs, CCT, and Army Rangers all have sniper elements in their units. And although they all have their respective sniper schools, there is one school that stands out -- the United States Marine Corps Scout Sniper School.
The USMC Scout Sniper School is widely regarded in the military as the finest sniper training program. The Marines offer a tremendous program that trains eligible sniper candidates in all branches of the armed services.

As a matter of fact, Army snipers attend some smaller Marine Corps scout sniper courses, too:

The Scout Sniper School has now integrated Marines from the entire 3rd Marine Division as well as soldiers from the Army's 25th Infantry Division aboard Schofield Barracks, and Navy Seals from Navy Seal Delivery Team 1 located at Ford Island.
Previously, the school only trained Marines with the regiment.

"We are learning how to properly employ snipers, how to use the weapons, use camouflage and stalking techniques," said Army Spc. Joshua Garrison, a sniper with Headquarters Co., 1st Bn., 27th Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division. "Soldiers can learn as much as they want from their unit, but to become sniper qualified, they have to attend this school.

Ebola? Out of the will...

To be clear here, in no way do I denigrate the Marine's well-earned esteem in weaponry. I just feel compelled to defend the big green machine.

That said, I can say that twenty years ago marksmanship was not a priority in at least some Army non-combat units. As a pressman, I had to volunteer for extra duty as a range safety NCO to get a chance to keep my M-16 expert rating. We got to pop off any leftover ammo after everyone else was done. Otherwise, I would have shot maybe once a year, it just wasn't emphasized back then.

We got to pop off any leftover ammo after everyone else was done.

And that's pretty much the problem, Dave. Marksmanship training requires ammunition. The Army bean counters always look at training cuts when the budget gets tight, and training ammo always seems to be one of the first things to go. I could always tell this by how many rounds one had to fire during formal weapons qualification. When I was a lieutenant, the standard was 120 rounds. 20 years later, IIRC, it was 60 to 80 rounds, depending on your ammo allocation.

And the really funny thing, at least on the reserves side of things, was after fighting like hell to get some ammo the only thing that was a bigger pain in the neck was bringing any leftovers back. It wasn't "wasted" because we did get extra training in, but sometimes we shot a lot more than we really needed to.

I think all ASP managers are funny about turn ins, Dave. The ASP at Yakima Training Center was notorious for being a pain when I was still in the Guard. Turning in unused ammo and residue there required at least as much pre-planning as did the actual training.

Unused ammo is still a pain. Unbelievably painful. I can't say why.

"!00% wrong, Skyler. Every soldier is trained to use a rifle in Basic."

Isn't that the same thing that I said?

Isn't that the same thing that I said?

Not quite. But I won't press the point.

I think the point you're missing is that Marines don't only get training in "Basic." They get it yearly and religiously. Marines never skimp on ammo for rifle training. We don't just shoot at the 25 yard line like the army generally does. Every year we shoot on the 200, 300, and 500 yard lines. This is more than the typical soldier got, and even still gets, so far as I've seen. When I've seen army doing rifle quals in the past couple years, they never shot past 25 yards or thereabouts. Maybe 100 yards, but I don't recall that they went that far. It looks like they do their initial qualification out to 300 yards, but I'm pretty sure their annual requalification is nowhere near as stringent.

The only time I ever only shot the 25 yard line was in Okinawa where we didn't have a complete, Army range. Everywhere else I've ever been has full-length ranges. I think the Army firing out to 300 yards is the norm, not the exception. And most units I belonged to fired twice a year though you're only required to do so once a year. Most battalions ran quarterly ranges and other units were running them all the time. If you wanted to get to a range, it wasn't very hard.

It would seem that you were in an infantry battalion, which I would expect to be above the norm. Until recently, non-combat soldiers would not get anywhere near that level of training, or so I have been taught.

PAO REMF all the way, Skyler.

I've shot both 25 and 300 yard ranges, Skyler. Go back and read what I posted, especially the "Not quite. But I won't press the point" part.

PS: I was assigned to a lot of different units, an Engineer company in a cavalry regiment, an Engineer battalion, a tank battalion, an MP detachment (I was the commander), a straight leg brigade HQ, a mech inf brigade HQ, and so on. I shot the 25 yard range while in the tank battalion (a Guard unit), and a couple times on active duty. The rest -- 300 yard ranges.

Just so you know.