The Sean Bell Verdict

I freely admit that I have not paid enough attention to the details of this case to form an opinion about the officers’ guilt or innocence. I certainly can understand the cops’ feeling threatened, but 50 shots seems a bit…much. But what is getting my goat at the moment is how the media is reporting the verdict; specifically how Reuters is. Here’s the opening para

NEW YORK, April 25 (Reuters) – Three New York City detectives were found not guilty of all charges on Friday in the shooting death of an unarmed black man killed in a hail of 50 bullets on his wedding day, sparking an angry demonstration outside the courthouse.

Which instantly plays to the theme that it’s a racially charged incident, doesn’t it? As does this a little later:

The case had generated outrage in New York’s black community, though police said they did not expect violence because numerous demonstrations against the perceived police brutality had remained peaceful.
“It shows that there is no justice in America for the black man. This is telling us the cops can do whatever they want and get away with it,” said B.M. Marcus, a community organizer.
Civil rights leader Al Sharpton, who has been highly critical of police and is influential in New York’s black community, left the courthouse without making a comment.

So, it seems like another example of racist America, doesn’t it? No wonder Obama is on the ropes, right?
Well, what Reuters chooses to ignore while playing up the race of Sean Bell is this

Two of the cops are ‘black’. Where’s your racial theme now?
CNN, to their credit, reports just pretty much the facts in the case as we know them.
Police misconduct is enough of a concern without spurious racial charges and innuendos being thrown about.

29 Responses to “The Sean Bell Verdict”

  1. Ebola says:

    Oliver, who reloaded his semiautomatic in the middle of the fray, fired 31 times, Isnora fired 11 times, and Cooper, whose leg was brushed by Bell’s moving car, fired four times, the NYPD said.

    Well, yes, 51 shots fired, but you figure the average clip capacity of a 9mm glock (standard nypd issue, as far as I can find) or even a glock .40 is ten rounds… That means Oliver is a speed loader cause he reloaded (assuming he had a round chambered to begin with) two times. That nuts. However in the defense of the other two, all I can say is if I thought someone was trying to run my ass over I’d put an entire clip into his car too.

    And yeah, the racist thing is complete bullshit. Black community has a nasty tendancy to call everything injustice based on the color of their skin. Slightly ironic. But if it were those same two black cops and one hispanic were blasting this shit outta John Little the White Man…? Yeah, exactly, no outrage. Don’t see the mexicans playing the race card where this shit is concerned. I’m sincerely sick of America’s capitulating to slavery dogma that they’re all supposed to feel bad about the past and lift the AfAm community onto a pedastal simply for being black. How about we just learn from the past instead of granting free reign to be a bunch of asshole hypocrits (well, for the most part)? I don’t demand recompensation for my Irish forefathers being treated like shit. Also, I can actually trace my lineage back to. Which 40% of them can’t trace back to actual slaves but want the compensation for. A la Obama…for instance.

  2. yoshi927 says:

    I agree. The thing is, even if you take out the racism, it’s a travesty of justice. It doesn’t matter what the judge thought about the witness’s manners. These guys had the mens rea (direct intent to cause death or serious injury) and we know that they were part of the group who shot the guns. Downplaying the racial aspect does not change that.

  3. Ebola says:

    While I agree that the intent was definitely to kill there are the circumstances to consider:

    1. Guzman had threatened someone inside the bar, and threatened to go get a gun out of his car.
    2. After identifying themselves as police, Bell (in the car supposedly carrying the gun) hauls ass
    3. He hit an officer and a van backin the car up in a rush.

    From the given evidence, I’d say a response was warranted. The given response though…that’s another thing.


    One of Sean Bell’s friends shouted, “Go get my gun,” twice during a heated argument outside a Queens strip club minutes before detectives unleashed a hail of 50 bullets at the men, an undercover cop testified this afternoon.NYP

    Sanchez recalled Bell twice growling, “Let’s f- him up,” referring to Coicou.
    That’s when Guzman replied, “Yo, go get my gun,” Sanchez recalled.NYP

    Two details of the case are likely to be brought to bear on the question of justification. Mr. Bell, who was driving the car that drew the fire of the officers, had been drinking that night (an autopsy found that his blood alcohol level was well above the legal limit for driving, according to people briefed on the results). The car struck one of the detectives and then crashed into an unmarked van carrying other officers, the police said. In addition, one of the men wounded along with Mr. Bell that night has testified before a grand jury that there was talk of someone having a gun…NYT

    (oops! found this in the spam folder! -ed)

  4. Gerald says:

    If anything, the black community could demand reparations from your Irish forefathers over how many blacks the Irish lynched during the conscription riots, OK? Second, where on earth do you get the idea that only 40% of American blacks descended from slaves? Since immigration policy only RECENTLY began allowing blacks from Africa and the Caribbean to emigrate here in appreciable numbers, claiming that anything less than 90% of blacks did not descend from slaves is ridiculous. And when did Barack Hussein Obama EVER demand reparations? I am no fan of Obama, nor do I support reparations, but railing charges like this are absurd.
    Incidentally, all of you who claim that no one cares when whites suffer injustice at the hands of blacks … IT WAS BLACKS WHO RESCUED REGINALD DENNY AND RISKED THEIR LIVES TO SAVE HIS! Funny how quickly things like that seem to be forgotten. You have also forgotten incidents like black activist Earl Ofari Hutchison, who DOES support reparations (and strangely enough is the brother – in – law to the love child of Jesse Helms … small world!) publicly denouncing Colin Ferguson and criticizing other blacks for refusing to do so.
    Sean Bell did nothing to deserve his death, and the people who killed him are going to get off scot free. There is no evidence that they killed Bell because he was black, and I am perfectly fine with stating despite having no first hand knowledge of the situation or knowledge of the police officers in question whatsoever that they DID NOT kill him because he was black. Still, the issue is that incidents like this tend to happen in the black community often and in the white community almost never. The only similar case regarding a white person in New York was when a mentally deranged Jewish man who had stopped taking his anti – psychotic medication ran at police swinging a claw hammer. That was a clear case of the police defending themselves – and other innocent people – from an armed threat. In other words, it was nothing like the cases of Amadou Diallo, Patrick Dorismond, Abner Louima, Sean Bell, Donovan Jackson, or even Rodney King. (Note that of those, RODNEY KING WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT THE POLICE WERE AFTER FOR COMMITTING A CRIME!)
    The issue that I have here is simply this: are these police tactics used in other neighborhoods? The police were at that strip club busting up a prostitution racket. Fine. But are prostitution and drugs only associated with the strip clubs in black neighborhoods frequented by black clientele? The same thing with the war on drugs. You hear about police busting into and shooting up “crack houses” all the time, and from time to time they get the address wrong, or they are relying on a tip from an informant who lied to him. Cost of doing business you say? Well, do police barge into rave parties on the upscale parts of town, where the ecstasy and cocaine are out in the open for all to see? (The Washington Post reported that President Bush’s daughters attended such parties all the time while in college.) No, they do not. So, you have a situation where incidents like these happen to blacks not because the police get together and say “hey, let’s go shoot an innocent black guy in the back tonight and claim that he had a gun” but rather because law enforcement tactics that would never be used in higher income and/or white neighborhoods are used in black and/or poor neighborhoods. If you want omelettes you have to break eggs, right?
    It is easy to play the reverse racism card when you know that it will never happen to your kid because the police don’t employ these tactics on your side of town, but it does not change the fact that a tragic injustice happened in the case of Sean Bell and so many like him. And no, the fact that blacks heavily disproportionately commit crimes does not justify this. This was not a racial profiling or dark alley confrontation gone bad. Like the Patrick Dorismond incident, it was a botched sting operation, and like the Amadou Diallo incident, the police officers were undercover, and the victim thought that he was being targeted by armed assailants for robbery or worse. The worst part is the very set of bad facts that people use to justify these sorts of tactics in these communities are what causes the victims to react the way that they do. People who live in high crime areas are conditioned to the threat of being victimized by criminals and act accordingly. If you see someone point a gun in your face, you are not going to assume that it is a plainclothed police officer, because the last 99 times someone pointed a gun in someone’s face in that same area it was a robber, rapist, murderer, gang member, etc. And you do not stick around hoping that a cop will come save you because that generally doesn’t happen in those neighborhoods. Usually the result is the guy with the gun doing whatever he wants with and killing you followed by exiting the scene with no repercussions. So, in order to give yourself a chance, you either put up a fight or run away. Patrick Dorismond put up a fight, Amadou Diallo and Sean Bell attempted to flee. Now where the Diallo case was all white cops and the Dorismond and Bell cases were cops of varying races, the truth is that race don’t matter. In a neighborhood like that, a guy with a gun is a guy with a gun. Period. As a matter of fact, if you even see a white person in that type of neighborhood you assume that he is up to no good. White people have actually filed racial profiling complaints against NYPD because of being stopped on presumptions that they were in the neighborhood to buy drugs or the services of prostitutes.
    So, the result is that if the police know that using these tactics are going to result in frightened innocent people taking cops (ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE PLAINCOTHED AND IN UNMARKED CARS!) fleeing for their lives, why even use these tactics? It isn’t as if these tactics are “winning the war on crime.” Instead, they result in innocent people dead and resentment of blacks and the poor towards the police. Even Ron Paul, a very conservative white rural Texas Republican in his 70s, acknowledged that the war on drugs was racist towards blacks, as do plenty of other conservative white libertarians. Again, it is not that the people are consciously attempting to mistreat black people (for Paul and his fellow travelers would be loathe have that mindset) but rather the knowledge that the government has to show results in the “war”, and that such a war would have no political results were it Ivy League kids getting blown away by cops for using crystal meth and ecstasy, so they have to fight the war on the turf of the underclass. And that was what was so galling about the Patrick Dorismond case in particular: the undercover cop went up to a guy to ask him for drugs intending on arresting him if he said yes and badgering him for information on where he could find a drug dealer (in which case he could have also got arrested) in front of an inner city nightclub. The police could have done precisely the same thing in front of an upscale nightclub and gotten the same results, BUT THEY NEVER DO. Why? BECAUSE UPSCALE PEOPLE HAVE MONEY, LAWYERS, POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC CLOUT!
    I think that it is going to take a huge civil settlement, one of those $100 million deals, to force the government to abandon these tactics, to get back to policing that apprehends the guilty while not endangering the innocent. They could start by getting back to arresting the drug dealers that operate in broad daylight because they know that the police don’t even try to apprehend them anymore.

  5. Tainted Bill says:

    I think Oliver fired two full magazines, plus the round in the pipe.
    I’m sure Dave can explain, but on the surface, I have to think that firing off 31 shots from a handgun in less than ten seconds has to be reckless at least. At that rate of fire from a handgun, does he have anything but a fuzzy idea of where each bullet is actually going?
    Amid his other arguments, I do think that Gerald does have a point regarding police tactics. But the Draft Riots stuff…I think I’d want to establish that Ebola had Irish family in New York City at the time before going off on that.
    I know I didn’t, but if I did have to pay reparations for anything, I’d use part of the reparation check I’ll get from Queen Elizabeth.
    Not that I think I’d deserve it or anything.

  6. Mr. Bingley says:

    Gerald does raise some excellent points, despite mentioning Ron Paul in a positive light. I don’t know where that “40%” number comes from but it seems to me not unreasonable to assume that large percentages of descended-from-slaves american blacks would indeed not be able to trace their ancestry with any degree of accuracy, given how the families were split up and sold separately at times with little more record keeping than “Bonnefons, James Philip to William McLeod, Bill of Sale for 12 slaves, including a Carpenter, a Cooper and a Cook.” Boy, that sure helps the old family tree, now doesn’t it?
    I think it’s quite clear that race played no part in these events; whether it played a part in the events leading to these events as Gerald theorizes is certainly a valid question, although the examples he cites would frankly cause me to think there’s more of an economic bias as opposed to a racial one at work.
    Bill, I don’t *think* Ebola had any shanty ancestors in NYC at the time.

  7. You wouldn’t admit it if he did, Bingley. That would blow your whole “descended from Irish kings” pick-up line.

  8. Mr. Bingley says:

    No, Sis, not at all! I think chicks really dig the “I was a poor Irish shanty stud muffin” line!

  9. Tainted Bill says:

    Ron may be a little eccentric (and a little too close to racist publications), but I think he couldn’t be more right on the drug war.
    Actually, I’ve been thinking about the sheer number of ancestors I would have had back in 1863 (assuming 32 great-great-great grantparents), I may have to retract my earlier statement. Though I can’t name one of them, 8 probably were in the NYC area.

  10. Tainted Bill says:

    Actually, we’re all descended from kings. If you go back far enough.

  11. Well, Bill, ebola and Bingley both spring from obscure Middle Earth lineage…check their feet.

  12. Tainted Bill says:

    Funny…Bingley isn’t short. Are you sure I shouldn’t check his ears?

  13. Ebola says:

    First off, Gerald, nice rant. I’m actually impressed: not due to accuracy, but more due to ranting ability. So, my turn! Wee.

    Now, for the gross generalizations. Anyone who wants a pay check for actions to, from, and about their ancestors is quite simply one or both of two things: A greedy bastard or a politician. Let me explain. They either want money for something that has nothing to do with them except DNA strands from well over a hundred years ago, or they want a manipulatable populace from which they can spring either votes or money.Note the correlation with the M word. As for the conscription riots…exactly how do we go from the discussion of reparations from slavery (something, you might have noticed was…oh, continental in scope) to the conscription riots? Hmmm? Also, Obama was a specific reference for the fact that he is a man of some right off the boat African decent. Thus no ability to demand that he get paid for his ancestors misfortune of being weak or in the wrong place. Also, this brings up another fun fact about the slave trade. Are you suggesting the black community should also demand reparations from the Zulu’s and plethora of other tribes that sold their enemies and captives to white slave traders and even had standing agreements for the procurement of more slaves? I find that laughable and the reason it is so laughable is that it isn’t possible because it isn’t in the face of the man.

    Sean Bell did nothing to deserve his death

    ….Are you bloody retarded or simple delusional? Threatening to get a gun, or fetch a gun for a friend, and attempting to run over people that have just identified themselves as officers of the law tends to do one of two things: get your ass thrown in jail, or get your ass shot. Innocent people my ass; where the hell do you get innocent people from? Damn near every single person over twenty has broken a law at some time or another. Where do you get off assuming they were innocent? As Skyler was polite enough to point out, assault means the implied intent to do harm also. So…that means that by threatening to go get a gun, they’ve committed a prosecutable crime. Let’s continue.


    What is it with you and picking subjective (and let’s face it, statistical improbability of generalized recurrence) happenings? And yes, the police do bust up Rave parties all the time. You know what the difference is? People drugged up at Raves generally don’t go in carrying sidearms, or threatening the locals. Nor do they try to run the cops over after the cops have found out they might be retreiving a weapon. So, bad example on your part. Sorry to break it to the PC world, but race is valid as an identifier, and it quite obviously has social repercussions in so far as crime statistics are concerned. I live by Mobile, Alabama and every night an the news, just like clockwork you can, with I’d guess around a 90% accuracy range, guess what color someone is before they show a mug shot or say their name. "Tonight in the news, three men shot in a robbery". I’ll actually lay it out for you, robberies are about 80/20 b/w. Homicide and rape is almost entirely black. If you see pedophilia, domestic violence, etc, it’s a white guy that belongs on your classic COPS episode in the trailer park. The curiosity for me, in fact, is that there’s almost no Latino robberies/homicides/pedophilia etc reported. Which considering the population is curious. I guess they’re better at it, lol.

    Also, upscale places have clientelle that are generally not stupid enough to do things where they’re going to get caught. If they want to do that they go someplace where everyone else is doing something similiarly illegal, thus lowering their probability to get nailed. And why don’t they do it while they’re in upscale places? A minority no doubt does, but the reason why, is that they have something to lose.

    This "feel sorry for us" bullshit attitude is exactly why the Rainbow Coalition bullshit never worked. No Latino is going to feel bad for something their ancestors have no part of, and it’s an integral part of black society. I am not my forefathers, and I will not apologize for what they did or did not do. Why? They’re too widespread and I don’t give a flying shit besides learning the history. Their mistakes are not mine, and I should not have to pay for them, any more than I magically reap the benefits of the good they did. I can’t reap that because someone has no doubt shit on whatever good they’ve done by now. So fuck reparations. Anyone who wants them can go back to Africa and argue with the tribes there (who got you into this mess for the most part – and let’s not forget the Turkish) before you start here for the treatment of yer ancestors. The rest of the world neither gives a shit, nor wants to hear about it. Hell, Africa doesn’t want to hear about it. The fact the America is supposed to do anything but say, "Sorry, our bad, won’t happen again" is a pipedream for a bunch of narcisistic money grubbing hate mongerers in their own right. Guess what? The rest of the world has rationalized that it has real, and might I mention "present" problems to deal with. Hell, you probably don’t want to go back to Africa to have that little tribal discussion for that exact reason. Not worshiping the right god? Not part of the right clan? Yer fucked. And thus the whole problem comes full circle. So I leave you with my message, "Learn from it and drop it you whiny little shits."

    Now, you can scream racist and whatever the fuck else you want, but let’s remember something here… I’m as Heinz57 as you can really get. My forefathers had a habit of mixing genes with…well, everyone except their own static genetic matches, considering my lineage. So, I’ve got a broader perspective at the genetic level. Oh, and my god says I’m right. Did I forget any other trite excuses for my correctness? I’m sure someone can think of one or two.

  14. Ebola says:

    And you know what, let’s not forget something far larger than every black American getting recompensation for frivolous shit. Let’s apply that to the Native Americans? Not just continental united states. Perhaps all Incan and Mayan descendants should be paid by Spain, for Cortez bringing the plague…and Christianity (which god knows wasn’t quite polite to them). Or we can focus on the Continental natives? They lost far more people than the blacks, had far more families split usunder and lost all their land. And then you can go for the purity of the bloodline, the race of Native Americans is probably gonna be damn near extinct within the next century or so. Perhaps we should give it all back? And then after that (they did come first, you need to wait in line) we can repay black America. ::snort::

  15. Gunslinger says:

    “but you figure the average clip capacity of a 9mm glock (standard nypd issue, as far as I can find) or even a glock .40 is ten rounds

    Actually, for the Glock 19 the standard mag capacity is fifteen rounds (which jibes with Det. Oliver firing 31 shots, two full mags and one chambered).

  16. major dad says:

    Man how does my Ebola type so much? Just my opinion but police who empty magazines just have no fire discipline. Spray and pray. I guess that’s what they teach them. One or two well aimed shots are far more effective. The excuse that he tried to run me over over is lame, get out of the way my friend. Even if he’s coming at you and you do shoot the guy dead it’s not like he’s going to apply the brake and take his foot off the gas before he dies. I hope those three detectives get sent back for some remedial training. Well maybe not, that might be the problem.

  17. We been covering Sean Bell’s case over at Highbrid Nation from the start and when I read today that the police officers were acquitted I was in serious disbelief. An unarmed man was shot 50 times and the people who did it are not responsible at all!? That’s crazy.

  18. Mr. Bingley says:

    Exactly right, major dad.
    Slavery was and never can be alluded to as “some frivolous shit.” However, as you correctly point out, it was ended long before any of us were on the earth and we are not responsible for the sins of our forefathers. We do, however, have to live with the results and effects of those sins.
    The whole idea of reparations for acts done hundreds and even thousands of years ago is a sham. Everyone who was directly affected by it is long dead. History is all about one group of people moving in and displacing another by means that were usually less than pleasant. Where does the kvetching stop? Should eastern europeans press claims against the mongols? It is a reductio ad absurdium, or whatever the term is that my drunken fingers refuse to type. Shit happened. To twist the words of Santayana, those who obsess over the past are condemned to repeat it. What matters is who and what you are now, and what you chose to make of what is available to you now. What matters is that America was originally a horribly racist nation that recognized its flaws and fought a very bloody war to correct them. And we’re still working now to correct them, and that’s the beauty of our system. When a flaw is recognized the people work to correct it. It may not be immediate, it may be slow and halting, but the progress is made.

  19. greg newson says:

    They could have easily killed an innocent by-stander.In San Francisco a similar situation
    happened where cops sprayed and prayed like fifty
    rounds at a man with a knife.A teenaged girl was hit
    in a nearby restaurant.Nothing ever happened to the cops.

  20. greg newson says:

    One more thing,Don’t these cops know how to shoot?
    I haven’t fired a gun in ten years,but if you
    gave me pistol I’d could hit you, even on the run,
    within five shots.But, I grew up shooting and cops
    nowadays don’t shoot as kids.

  21. Mr. Bingley says:

    greg, as major dad said, these are serious cases of ‘spray and pray’, which frankly to me is unacceptable from a police officer. Their shooting skill sucks.

  22. Tainted Bill says:

    I wonder if Oliver’s career will survive the board hearing, I have to imagine that spray and pray is looked down on. I think the NYPD also has rules about firing at moving vehicles.

  23. Tnail says:

    Three guys. You have good reason to believe from previous threats and circumstance that they went to the car to get guns. You identify yourself, weapon drawn. You get rammed in the leg. Then they throw it forward and ram your van. One guy reaches down low (known as the Guzman Bluff). Three guys with weapons can possibly unload 45 bullets in short order. What do you do.
    Well, you reason that 51 bullets might be excessive and you’ll take a few test shots, and maybe one towards the leg to be reasonable. Perhaps you’ll shoot out the tires to show your good faith effort.
    So what would you really do? Hell yes, you’d unload your clip on them. To say otherwise is BS.
    At the end of the day, if they behaved earlier in the night they’d be alive.
    Now you’re in court. It’s essentially your word against theirs situation. One star prosecution witness claimed Sean Bell spoke through severed vocal chords. Divine intervention? Ventriloquism? Who knows. Then he later blows his cool when cross examined exhibiting the kind bull shit behavior that, well, gets people in trouble. Then the second star witness, contends he made up his first testimony and changed his in court testimony to help with his 50 million dollar suit against the city. They’re followed by a gallery of conflicting testimonies, some conjured by people with heavy rap sheets and ulterior motives.
    You didn’t think they’d make it this easy.
    If you’re to be convicted, it would be on a stack of lies. You just have to tell what happened.
    And that my friends is what happened. Even with a better prepared prosecution they still would have been acquitted. There was nothing to refute their contention that they were had reasonable cause to believe they were in danger.
    If you gonna talk about guns and make lethal threats, be prepared to die from them.

  24. TNails says:

    re: Major Dad
    Rename yourself “High Grade Nation”. What you call coverage are stoned musings on what you’d like to believe. Have you’ve been following the case closely? It came down to whose story to believe not the fact that 51 bullets were shot. 51 bullets has been the tagline to obfuscate the details in the truth.
    The issues were: did they have reasonable cause to feel the were in lethal danger? And did Isnora ID himself as a cop? If the prosecution could refute them, case closed. But they would also have to prove the cops were on a gun crazy warpath. Now the decks clearly stacked against them.
    Race has got nothing to do with it so far. Just check out how the DA handily put away the two (white) Mafia Cops for take part or being complicit in at least 21 killing. Guess they hate Italians.
    Back to the story. The only ones who could refute the police were the prosecutions witnesses. And unfortunately their testimonies conflicted all over the place, changed radically from their the initial accounts and one flat out admitted to changing it for financial motives.
    So please, enough of “50 bullets” how can this be? Well there’s five cops approached by battering ram car with what you have good reason to believe is filled with three armed and dangerous men. If it were ten cops it would’ve been a 100 bullets.

  25. The truth says:

    There is a rally May 1st at union square around noon. And the truth is that even taking out the idea of race or even that they thought there was a crime, this is our city and we should be allowed to say that this is not okay here. Stray bullets everywhere

  26. Intellect 1st says:

    I have to say that Mr. Bingley has got to be one of the most uninformed individuals in my experience in the wonderful world of the world wide web!. Some of what you stated was valid, however when you started talking about your Irish ancestory and blacks wanting some sort of repreperations despite the fact that they are unable to trace their roots back to Africa, i got lost and thought what does this have to do with Sean Bell! I mean I saw gangs of newyork, and one of my best friends is part Irish so I know that the WASP believes you to be the N word of Europe! If anyone does not know what WASP stands for, as my old African Hertiage Professor used to tell me google it up!
    Are you aware of the upward advances made by today’s society in tracing DNA. People such as Oprah Winfrey and Tom Jorner just to name a few have traced their lineage back to Africa and it’s many tribes. Also many whites have traced their roots, not only to Ireland but also to Africa. Slavery is a dirty little piece of history that everyone wants to forget, namely the people that were not enslaved or the people that are embrassed to live in a country that would have such an eronious stint in time.
    I do not consider the Sean Bell shooting to be race releated obviously with two of the culperts being black, however i do consider them to be neglectful, and possibly intoxicated at the time. When Mr. Guzman stated “go get my gun” should that not have been enough for cops to search him and the car. To be honest, I know brothers that have been searched for walking down the street in their own neighboorhoods, so surely this would not have been a violation of rights. Isn’t that probable cause? Im no lawyer, but if they would have followed procedure, (something that someone that is under the influence is incapable of doing), then maybe an innocent man would not be dead! Yes he is innocent lets not forget, no gun was found!

  27. Mr. Bingley says:

    Intellect, since this is my place I’ll give you some free advice: a good rule to follow is that before you call other folks “uninformed” you really ought to be sure that what you’re saying has some basis in fact. I did not talk about my Irish roots or blacks wanting compensation; ebola did. I somehow doubt that the fact that you saw “Gangs of New York” is really a credential that you should flout as certifying you as an expert on Irish immigration, despite the ten bucks you spent on it. Heck, I saw “Wayne’s World 2.” Am I therefore now an expert on rock concert promotion?
    According to the latest theories we all can trace our lineage back to Lucy in Olduvai Gorge; we are all of “african descent.” La-dee-freakin’-da. Who wants to “forget” slavery? I certainly don’t. I want to make very sure that nothing like that can ever happen again, that all people are treated equally. And that’s EXACTLY why I’m against any sort of immigration reform that creates some type of “guest worker” program, because that recreates a whole new class of unequal, segregated people. I’m not at all “embarrassed” to live in a country that once had slavery (which is frankly a ridiculous proposition, as EVERY country had slavery at one point or another, so the whole world should be “embarrassed”); in fact I am PROUD to live in a country that had it and got rid of it. That’s called progress, and it’s a wonderful thing.
    We’ll never know what exactly happened outside that strip club. I think you’re right in that alcohol certainly played a large part in the escalation, while race didn’t. Culture, perhaps, but not race. It seems to me that some penalty should be assessed against the cops. ‘Spray and Pray’ should be punished.

  28. Intellect 1st says:

    Actually Mr. Bingley, i caught it on the usa network for what ever it takes to keep up this cable service of mine. Never claimed to be an expert on the migration of the Irish, only stated what i know to be true of my own! I don’t think any of us has the right to presume what we think we know about other cultural and ethnic backrounds especially if we do not have any particular expertise of the field of study.
    I did read on, and it seems that i misjudged your position on this view. I agree with you, and thank you for your vauled opinion. That post was intended for Ebola.

  29. Mr. Bingley says:

    Fair enough, intellect. thanks for coming back and the clarification; it says much in favor of your character as it’s much easier to be a ‘drive by’ commenter. hope you have a nice weekend.

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